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PSN: gtvault-com
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GTVault updates for GT5 very unlikely
Posted 12/15/2010 4:57 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
A lot of people have been asking about site updates for GT5, so I wanted to take some time to relate my perspective and thoughts. In short, I have decided to suspend all efforts to update GTVault for GT5. I have so many reasons that it's difficult to decide where to start. The scope of GT5 and changes to the tuning model (small as they seem), make for a long and involved development effort. Also consider that at some point PD may decide to make changes to the tuning model. For instance, perhaps they'll decide to implement individual gear ratio changes.

This potential moving target makes development efforts even more difficult in the long term. I have requested, as I did with GT4, detailed technical information from PD. I've also reached out to some other community members, and have not had any success in these areas. I also asked for something as simple as a saved game with all cars available so that I can fully analyze all the tuning possibilities. I've thus far received no response. With GT4, I was able to obtain a complete saved game from gamefaqs.com. PD have implemented copy protection with GT5, so that does not appear to be a possibility this time around. Even if I were able to secure the resources vital to development, I still doubt that I would be willing to put forth the immense amount of effort required.

For me, GT5 is largely a rehash of the original GT1 idea from the mid 1990's, and an incomplete implementation at that. The best example of lack of follow through is that we can no longer fine tune gear ratios. Recall that every proper GT release before GT5 gave us the ability to tune gears. But wait, I can take pretty pictures of the cars! Oh, wait again, that's only about 20% of the cars. The other 80% we've all seen before, and they look fair to horrible in their current incarnation. There are myriad other examples like this that can be read about all over boards like GTPlanet. I acknowledge that there are great new features such as the track editor and online (still in active development BTW). Regardless, I just can't help but feel I'm playing much the same game I was well over a decade ago.

In taking six years to develop GT5, PD elevated expectations to the stratosphere. The game tries to be everything to everyone, but falls short in achieving that goal. The continual missed deadlines are always disappointing to gamers. From a professional standpoint, if I missed my development deadlines as has PD, I would have long ago been fired for incompetence. But, we still reward the powers that be in the form of our money going into their pockets. As a consumer, I have already given SCEA the only thing they ever wanted. As a developer, I can still choose to devote my time to projects I view worthwhile. The bottom line is: I am not interested in spending my time developing a website for an incomplete, largely derivative game where my personal experience is middling at best.

From the derivative standpoint, I had much the same feelings about GT4 when it was released, but at least that game was completed by comparison to GT5. The fact that console game developers can now release online patches is a major red herring. On one hand, gamers are given the promise of new features and added functionality. The reality is it gives developers the opportunity to release poorly tested code and incomplete features. Prior releases of GT did not have this opportunity, and that is largely the reason those games felt much more complete. It used to be all or nothing when releasing console titles, and the paradigm shift to an online distribution model has forever changed that mentality. Perhaps I will change my view if/when PD completes the game. Regardless, having already spent my hard earned money for a product that is not up to snuff will leave an enduring bad taste in my mouth.

None of this even touches what I also view to be poor game design decisions. The economics and chance of acquiring cars you sometimes need are atrocious. The grinding one must do in A-Spec should you want to progress past the middle levels of the game (mid 20's) is excruciating. I was tired of that in 1987, playing Dragon Warrior II on the NES.

I know this message will come as a disappointment to many, and to that I only ask that you try to place yourself in my shoes. I do not make decisions of this nature lightly, and I also know that I am alone in my sentiments. I have seen eye opening comments from people normally very enthusiastic about a GT release. Perhaps the strongest of those is that some gamers have chosen to go back to GT4 because they are already bored with GT5. That kind of assessment from gamers who are your cash cow is not a harbinger of good things to come.
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You are not alone...
Posted 12/15/2010 5:49 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Draghon's info
There are many of us that side with your decision... Maybe if they do ever complete the game the time will come to update the site, but like said in the other forum just below this one, the setups for GT4 really do work in GT5, Personally I use a combination of http://www.gtvault.com/gt4/setup-view/s_sid::3193/Polyphony-Digital-Formula-Gran-Turismo/ for the Settings and settings for fastest speed on ALL my cars, and other than major under steer over 50mph I can't seem to rid of, it works for every car,every track... I just want you to know Kerr, you are not alone...
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Updated 12/15/2010 8:30 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
That's interesting about the understeer. I haven't perceived it as much, but I am also using a Logitech G27, so we're coming from completely different directions when it comes to gameplay. Perhaps other controller users can weigh in.

My prior statements about GT5 not being complete turn out to be very timely, considering some news I've read over on GTPlanet. One of the latest posts there is titled, "Gran Turismo 5 Standard Cars to be Upgraded to Premium". Having all cars on the same playing field would be one step closer to completing the game that millions of us have already paid for. Having Photo Mode is okay, but that feature has never been that important to me. After all, I'm playing Gran Turismo, not Gran Photo. The biggest related issue that affects gameplay from my standpoint is the lack of cockpit and hood views on Standard cars. Gamers get very, very accustomed to a particular method of play. When I first started playing GT5, I exclusively used the cockpit view as it provided a great level of realism.

Having to deal with the limited field of view due to the car being around you was a very cool thing for me. I played using cockpit view for quite awhile, and then was forced into driving my first Standard car. Bam, no cockpit view. Roll Eyes Sarcastically Ok, so I'll try my second choice, which is hood view. Gone. The Finger Roof, bumper and external are available, but they all offer quite different experiences if you ask me. The issue is exacerbated that much more when you're using a large TV like mine. I don't know how other gamers feel about it, but this side effect of splintering cars in the game became a very frustrating issue for me. Fast forward to today, where we are presented the Premium dangling carrot from PD. Great news, no? When you get into the details, it is still not known if all cars will be upgraded. Let's say PD end up upgrading 400 of the 800 remaining cars. A move like this could foster even more backlash from those whose favorite cars are still left dawdling in Standardville.

Let's also think about another implication of these massive updates: idle time whilst waiting for installation and maintenance. How many of us were frustrated that it took about two hours just to get GT5 up and running on release date? My initial HDD installation took well over an hour, and the 1.01 update took the good end of another hour. This ended up being a great selling point for my Xbox 360, as I played games on that system during the seemingly interminable installation. We're now a few major updates in, with what appears to be a lot more coming in the future. Anyone passingly familiar with game assets and their relative weight is bound to think the same thing I did: Updating a lot of your car models is going to take a lot of storage. By extension, that's going to take a lot of downloading time, wait time for installation, wait time for loading screens. Idle time. Doing nothing. Maybe I could hop over and watch GT TV, or perhaps play another game. Sorry, background download of this data is not available. This is far from the ideal gaming experience.

Another angle from which to view the issue is that of priorities. Plenty of people, upon hearing this news of upgraded models, renewed their criticism that long promised features like realistic damage modeling are still absent. Are PD playing with a full deck here? Have they gone off the deep end for partial aesthetic, only to sacrifice other gameplay elements that have long existed in other racing titles? I attach the partial modifier as nothing has been done as of yet about the utterly horrid real-time shadow rendering. PD has promised that will be fixed as well, but I prefer to deal in what is, and what is not.

As game developers whom are self-professed perfectionists, they sure seem to be half assing things. All of this speaks to long misplaced priorities, poor leadership and strategic decision making, and perhaps a sinking realization that GT5 was really made for higher end hardware than the PS3.
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Sorry, I ramble...
Updated 12/15/2010 8:46 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Draghon's info
I never used cockpit view for any game cause none of them let me use the full 180% sight people really have so recently I have used the roof top view, you are also right assuming I use a controller cause the wheel I have is just not right for any game (original one designed for GT3) and I don't think I will be getting another one till it accurately depicts a Mustang's 1 1/4 turn to one side (I even have my real car's wheel set up just like the gaming wheels, to see what real driving with a small wheel is like), I know that other cars may have 2-3 full turns to one side but some are shorter... I'm under the assumption that they may have done the lack of turning on controllers for a reason but it makes it so much harder to pass the licenses, also I'd like one to have the peddles to be hanging like most cars, and I know that someone made a video showing how to modify the peddles to be upside down, but to have them straight up would be better. I honestly wasn't looking for this site when I first signed up. I was looking for videos of setups people used on their cars, and couldn't find any, then started clicking on links and found this... I have learned much about setups and such, I used to use 3-3 and 6-6 on the bound and rebound on all cars but have learned other things like the differential, all I knew was the higher the more I spun out. IF I could hook up 3 monitors to get that somewhat 180 view I'd race in cockpit view... I also don't have the eye or whatever you can use to move the camera angle... I'm an old school gamer who still thinks the 8 bit games rule over these new ones... I do hope that PD will massively upgrade the game, usually I'm doing something on my computer or watching TV or at work while it loads...

I have a theory that maybe PD intended this unfinished game to be just that, like the SIMS game, many many many add-ons... Maybe they intend on upgrading the game but we have to buy the upgrades...

I read somewhere that the damage doesn't fully start till lvl 24 but doesn't get realistic till lvl 48, I don't know I'm still at lvl 19, and perhaps the only thing I think needs to be worked on is the physics of pitting the AI off the course and the returned favor... It's to easy to wipe me out but wiping them out is hard.

In playing cards, you don't show everyone your cards till the game is done, maybe they are holding a few cards left, and here we sit with a bluff...
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Admit it!
Posted 12/15/2010 9:57 PM Post a reply Quote this post View -1mic-'s info
Kerr YOU are just LAZY!

I do agree that PD made this a typical Japanese game where the simplest things are almost impossible to get done. It's sad that I spent $750 (extra $150 for 2 year insurance) on a launch PS3 JUST for GT5.

I bet if you saw donations coming in you would quickly change your mind and start a GT5 database. Your choice Kerr, maybe somebody will be smart enough and start a new tuning site...

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Posted 12/15/2010 10:16 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
I know you're joking, but nothing could be further from the truth. I've dedicated more of my personal time and expertise to the GT series of games than anyone I know. I've spent more time analyzing the game and developing this website than I have actually playing it. That no one has successfully implemented another site that does what GTVault does, in almost 10 years no less, is pretty telling if you ask me.

GTVault isn't a business venture, and money is not a big motivating factor for me (heresy in a capitalist society I know). If it were, I'd have put ads on GTVault from the very beginning.
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Posted 12/16/2010 6:03 AM Post a reply Quote this post View dudejo's info
personally, i think they should have forgotten about the whole premium BS and the 1000 cars.

ultimately, having that many cars will only translate into either clones or crappy cars no one will use at all.

GT2 had 400 cars and there was still something for everyone.

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Posted 12/16/2010 9:29 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
I agree, the fact that they created this Premium/Standard fork to begin with is one of those poor strategic decisions I spoke of. Further, the clear bias toward specific marques and models ends up being something we pay for in the form of more quantity yet less quality and true variety. Name one other racing game that has 200+ cars that also dedicates roughly 5% of that number to one specific model. PD has done it twice in a row now with the Skyline. Granted, most of the Skylines in GT5 are carryover from GT4, but then again we circle back to the fundamental Premium/Standard problem.
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Well......
Posted 12/16/2010 5:03 PM Post a reply Quote this post View DjWess's info
I'm actually playing both GT4 and GT5. So far I'm inbetween the two but I prefer to tune my gear ratios. PD will pick this up and they'll patch it up to where they can allow you to tune your gears and such. Stuff like this takes time and I should know because the same thing happened when I was playing Midnight Club: LA. online since the game kept freezing.

back on subject, Kerr's choice in the matter is for the best. Although I disagree with him not building the website, some factors come into play. One of which is game add-ons, that'll take time alone to add into the system of the website. Another is game updates and patches, PD will patch up the gear ratio issue to where you can tune it or update the game to where they try to correct loading times and glitches.

Like I said PD will pick up on its errors and try to correct them. But making the GT5 website ad-on is just too much at this point
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Posted 12/16/2010 5:08 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
My guess is that it will be a minimum of one year before the game is completed. At that point I may reconsider, as much time will have passed and PD will have had ample post-release opportunity to iron out bugs and integrate promised / much needed features.

My only hope is that the people whose livelihood depends on our dollars learn from their missteps.
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Very true
Posted 12/16/2010 5:13 PM Post a reply Quote this post View DjWess's info
Kerr wrote:
My guess is that it will be a minimum of one year before the game is completed. At that point I may reconsider, as much time will have passed and PD will have had ample post-release opportunity to iron out bugs and integrate promised / much needed features.

My only hope is that the people whose livelihood depends on our dollars learn from their missteps.


Eventhough I love Gran Turismo, this is not up to code of what they did. The only excuse they'll have is that sony forced the release date on them. To me, THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Have fun while you race others. If you don't why are you racing in the first place?
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Posted 12/16/2010 5:14 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
Two words: six years.
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Posted 12/16/2010 5:19 PM Post a reply Quote this post View DjWess's info
Kerr wrote:
Two words: six years.

for now I'll give them a year to update their game for fullness
Have fun while you race others. If you don't why are you racing in the first place?
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Posted 12/16/2010 5:22 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
FYI - your banner says "please update your competition banner code".
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Posted 12/16/2010 7:44 PM Post a reply Quote this post View DjWess's info
Kerr wrote:
FYI - your banner says "please update your competition banner code".

I know, I didn't see anymore car competitions on the website since GT5 came out
Have fun while you race others. If you don't why are you racing in the first place?
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Posted 12/16/2010 8:22 PM Post a reply Quote this post View abs352's info
I can see PD doing several changes over the next few months. Kerr, you are making the right choice. Also, I loved the Dragon Warrior reference. The immense amount of time it takes to level up is something that bored me years ago as well.

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GT5
Posted 12/16/2010 10:13 PM Post a reply Quote this post View AmericanXiahou's info
Kerr, while i back you on the decision NOT to essentially make a whole new website, how hard is it to make a template with all the visible(if not adjustable) options, and just allow the people to make the posts? If only for the sake of complete tuning idiots like myself.
An honest question, because i really dont know.
As for them finishing Gran Turismo 5... i think they will 'finish' it, and be done with it.
Some games that come out these days eventually add add on content that double or more the replay value and significantly increase the time it takes to complete such a game.
Borderlands and The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion really come to mind in that sense.
I cant see them adding such add on content(which it so desperately needs), rather just finishing their failure of a game, and starting on GT6.
Honestly, As long as its not PSX graphics, i dont really give a damn bout them.
Physical damage looking better(more) and mechanical damage is much more important.
As far as he grind.... SCREW THE GRIND! They needed to keep the dealership races... they needed to have far more, less specific races. Missions and licenses(actually being useful, anyway)
As far as a single car for winning 1 aspec and 1 bspec race... SCREW THAT. A diminishing carousel would be better. start with 4 cars(different for a and b spec) and when you win one car, you cant win that car again, from that race.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm sure you empathize with my frustration...
But still, i will play my 60$ worth... and we will see what they do in the next few months.
Chief said we gotta do this one by the book... But the problem is, I'M ILLITERATE!

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Updated 12/16/2010 11:36 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Vimana's info
Kerr love you dude, but I hope you change your mind. I have just tuned the hottest setup for the Supra RZ. But one way or the other you have been the greatest Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
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I really have to stop volunteering family members without their consent
Posted 12/17/2010 12:18 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Draghon's info
IF you ever do eventually get the GT5 site going and GT5 is for the most part completed, my brother-in-law might be able to help you with the site. on another note, his site is www.akropolys.com if you want to check his work out, he just updated the "Wishlist" site and I love it... he is also a server, or rather, he runs one.....
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Posted 12/17/2010 11:55 PM Post a reply Quote this post View versaguy's info
Kerr - I've been pretty vocal about my overwhelming disappointment with GT5 as released - so I understand your decision and support it - sad as it is. What were they doing for 6 years and don't they have real-world gamers to test?

As a total obsessive compulsive with GT4, I kinda feel like I've had some sort of surgical removal performed on me when I play 5.

On another note, I too am having the understeer problem with GT Force wheel. I'll switch to G27 and see if there is any difference.

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Posted 12/18/2010 2:26 AM Post a reply Quote this post View johnnyfj's info
having read your say on gt5 i feel i should explain myself more fully.the whole idea of a racing game is the racing,everything else is secondary.in these races the A1cars can shove you anyhow they like,if you hit one of theirsi your magnetized to it but once your passed them its so easy to win its boring.what the really good drivers make of this i dont know.the lack of racing variety is staggering.in this game we have damage which is so slight its useless.if the damage does not slow down or stop the car why have it.some cars look good others are indifferent ,personally i dont care, lets race. tuning! why bother all the cars are good enough to win their respective races.loading time ha.what a joke.i could go on but i am bored writing about it.thank you kerr for gt vault.your site made the other gt games sing.damn them.
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