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PSN: gtvault-com
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Gran Turismo HD Demo
Updated 05/12/2007 4:06 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
I bit the bullet awhile back and purchased a PS3. I have to say it is an amazing machine, especially for HDTV owners. The first generation games are very impressive, and I can't wait to see the results when developers really begin to harness the PS3's power. I of course downloaded the Gran Turismo HD Demo as soon as I got everything hooked up. I'm pretty impressed with all aspects of the game. As with all good demos though, it leaves you salivating for more. It's been awhile since I've posted, so I thought I would comment on some of my observations.

Graphics
Everyone knows the GT series has been the benchmark which all other racing games (and other genres for that matter) games are held. Going back to GT1, the attention to detail given to the car models themselves has always been astounding. However, I feel that most will agree that the commitment to the cars themselves left other areas graphically lacking. Most notable are the low resolution texturing on some backdrops and 2D "paper" race fans. I imagine this could've been a function of previous consoles only being able to push so many polygons through the video processor. Regardless, the GT HD demo hits the ball out of the park. The mountain view scenery is purely jaw dropping, and the realism of the crowd cheering you on makes for a very enveloping experience. I found myself wrecking constantly during my first few laps, not because I couldn't drive the cars, but because I found myself stealing looks at the scenery a little too often. This is unfortunately how I observe many people driving in real life! I am also excited when I read about an in-car view, but GT HD does not feature this. edit - Thanks to Flasawoo for the link to a screenshot of an in-car view. Now that I see this, I recall having seen it before. Having a true in-car view will be an awesome addition to the game.

Sound
Much has been said about the unrealistic engine sound in prior GT releases, especially when dealing with fully tuned vehicles. The GT HD demo contains a very limited number of cars, but you can unlock a tuned version of each after beating a compulsory benchmark time. There are 0 tuning options outside of driving the hopped up versions of each car, so it's difficult to say with any veracity how realistic tuned motors will sound in GT5. That being said, I feel the sound quality of the engines is a marked improvement over prior releases. As always, the environmental sounds such as wind noise, tire squeal, etc., are all top notch. A decent 5.1 surround sound system is a requirement for those who want the whole experience.

Control
Alongside graphics, the physics is another hallmark for the GT series. I was blown away when I first played GT1. The tuning model aside, frankly I've been nonplussed ever since. I feel physics in the GT series has taken a very evolutionary track bereft of any continued innnovation. I didn't notice it so much until I played Forza on XBox. I kept going back to Forza again and again simply because I felt more connected to the cars I was driving. I'm sure some of you will disagree with me, especially when thinking of GT4. But having played all games mentioned extensively, my preference from a pure racing standpoint stands with Forza. It seems PD has swallowed a bit of their hubris and taken a cue from the Forza team, as I was pleasantly surprised with the overall physics in the GT HD demo. They've included a dedicated drift mode that is sure to excite the burgeoning drifter community. I'm not a huge drifter, but having played a few laps in drift mode, I did have quite a bit of fun with it. I admit I am a bit remedial in my capacity to explain the nuances of physics models, however I feel like I'm right there in the car when I careen through the corners in GT HD. Believe it or not, the GT series has always been about racing for me rather than tuning. Hell, I built GTVault because of my lack of tuning ability. Smirk

An area in which the GT series is painfully lacking is damage modeling. There is an pretty interesting thread over at the official Playstation forums about damage modeling in GT5. To distill it, a member there exchanged some private messages with a PD developer. The developer indicated that, due to PD's perfectionist tendencies (uhh, tell me why there's a boatload of bugs in every release!), the time it would take to incorporate damage modeling renders it an impossibility. I share MasterGT's view in that it ain't over till the fat lady sings. I couldn't care less about the musings of an individual developer insofar as he isn't an official spokesman for the game. Of course, if a damage model doesn't make it into GT5, that's a huge boon to any other racing franchise that does a decent job of it. The bottom line is that there needs to be accountability for crappy driving like wall riding and using cars as turn shields. The one true way to do so is to make racers pay for these decisions. Many people do not share my view and say that a damage model would make the game "too hard". I call bullshit. A damage model will accomplish an important goal, and that is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Not having a damage model in a game that pays so much attention to all other aspects of the racing experience is akin to manufacturing a car without a steering wheel. WTF? There is simply no good excuse for not including a damage model.

On a side note, as I said the genesis of the aforementioned thread was a private message exchange between the developer and another member. It was amusing to see the original poster manufacture defenses of his violation of the tenet of a private message. I personally feel that the developer was dumb for saying anything in the first place, assuming PD didn't want what he said to become public knowledge. Never write anything down assuming that it won't eventually be scrutinized by the public. I also feel that the member who posted the private message in a public forum showed his true colors in doing so, especially when attempting to justify what boils down to a violation of privacy. We have enough of that coming from the powers that be, let's not make it any worse by doing it to one another. And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Online
While there is no online racing in GT HD, top times are automatically submitted to a central server. Additionally, replays of the top ten times are available for your viewing pleasure. It is nice to be able to directly see and learn from the techniques of the top racers. I'm sure there's a write-up about it somewhere, but there seems to be some sort of rotation on the top times. I keep seeing different times and racers at the top. I assume this type of thing will go away with an official release. Online racing is, from my standpoint, the biggest selling point of racing sims these days. I hope that PD addresses issues I've seen with other games, such as ghosting (cars on top of one another) and lag.

All told, I am very excited about the possibilities for GT5. The level of immersion becomes ever more impressive with each successive generation of consoles, and PD has always done a good job of harnessing that power. Again, without comment on tuning specifics, the major elements are all there for a truly astounding experience. Let's just hope that PD listens to their customers' salient points on damage modeling.
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Updated 05/12/2007 4:02 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Flasawoo's info
I pretty much agree with you on what you've said there kerr.
Especially with the physics in which i was thinking exactly thr same thing, they feel a lot 'looser'. In the way that it is easier to lose the back end of the car through a turn, and as said it seems like they have taken a small leaf out of forzas book there.
I'd noticed the article on damage before, and all i can say is that i would be dissapionted if they don't implement it, i would rather have the game released 6 months later than have it without the damage. But hopefullly it will be offered as a download.

Also here is the offical screen of the in-car shot.
http://www.granturismo-hd.com/screenshots/viewshot/p45a.jpg
Note that this was a very early screen, the graphics of the scenery, most noticably the trees have improved in the final release. The screenshot was released back when GTHD Premium and Classic were set for release, so we can only gather that they would have included the view in the Premium package. This strongly leads us to believe that in GT5 (or possibly the prologue coming out later this year) will demonstrate such a view.

P.S. If you want to add me on PSN my ID is Flasawoo (make sure you mention who you are as i do not accept all invites)
Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4.
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Posted 05/12/2007 4:10 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
Thanks for the screenshot link. Now I remember seeing this awhile back. Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about -- the tail of the higher powered cars is much easier to swing out when you turn "crippling" off. That's what I liked about Forza, especially when you put an obscene blower on an already crazy fast car. The Lingenfelter Corvette comes to mind. I remember fully tricking it out... it was almost impossible to drive, but I feel that when you put a stupid amount of horsepower to a road car like that, then that's the experience you should have.
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Posted 05/18/2007 2:18 PM Post a reply Quote this post View MasterGT's info
Kerr wrote:
An area in which the GT series is painfully lacking is damage modeling. ... Not having a damage model in a game that pays so much attention to all other aspects of the racing experience is akin to manufacturing a car without a steering wheel. WTF? There is simply no good excuse for not including a damage model.

I'm glad you are enjoying your new console, Kerr. I'm still waiting to pull the trigger on a PS3, but we now have an HD screen for the day a PS3 joins the powerbar.

Damage modeling will certainly change GT for the better. If PD does not include damage in GT5, it will be the laughing-stock of the sim world and a huge missed opportunity to grow the game and the company. Like on-line (another missed opportunity), PD simply needs to get their hands dirty developing these features. It may not be perfect the first time out the door, but they can make it better, over time.

With over 700 cars in GT4, we have to wonder how PD would implement damage modeling, though. If it is static, in that each bend has to be accounted for, then forget it. We'll never see the game in our lifetime. If it is calculated dynamically, then the PS3 should be good to go for doing it. I'd be happy if PD only renders damage for racing cars.

I can't think of any sim that doesn't allow damage to be optional, so that argument against including damage is worthless. Bring it on, PD!
Cheers,

MasterGT

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Posted 05/21/2007 8:56 AM Post a reply Quote this post View GT2000's info
@Kerr: Whats the AI like? or is there no racing option in the demo?

AI in previous GT games have been dissapointing to say the least and this is an area that they need to improve on. The Forza 2 demo for example features brilliant AI who will actually race you instead of raming you from behind when your in there way.

As for visual damage I feel that GT does NOT really need it. Its not like I'm gunna crash on purpose just to see the damage effects. However I would like to see wear and tear damage on the engine, gearbox, brakes ect ect. Push the car to much and pop goes the engine Wink

I did hear a rumour that after release PD might make a damage "add on pack" via the playstation store... at a price of course.

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Posted 05/21/2007 10:14 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
@MasterGT - I agree that GT will be the laughing stock of the sim world should PD choose to leave damage modeling out of GT5. I'm more interested in the physical effects of damage than the graphic rendering of it, but I know it's not realistic to expect one without the other. Regardless, you are right about the PS3 being able to handle dynamic calculation of a damage scenario. Only time (and a lot of it) will tell.

@GT2000 - There unfortunately isn't an option to race against AI cars in the GT HD demo. I've heard about the AI in the Forza 2 demo. I need to play that demo as I understand the game has gone gold and is set for (at least in N. America) distribution at the end of May 2007. As far as selling damage as an optional add-on, I think it's a terrible idea. I believe I touched on this a few months back before GT HD was released as a demo. I strongly believe that a core gameplay feature like damage modeling (or AI for that matter) should be included in all copies of a game sold. The option to turn it off is fine, but to sell things like that as an extra is reprehensible.
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Updated 05/22/2007 11:40 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Flasawoo's info
Kerr, i believe that if they were planning on releasing the downloadable AI and damage after release then it would be free as it was intended as part of the game, but would have slowed down production.
It was just the option of extending the demo that was going to be GT HD Classic that was going to offer the downloadable content (for a price)

I can also confirm that there will be an incar view for GT5, here is the confirmation video. Unfortunately it's all in french A Little Slow
However the images on the video get across well (they show us the development of a speedo and the cockpit of what may be a 300sl)

http://kotaku.com/gaming/polygonal-overload/gt5-moves-the-action-inside-the-car-262372.php
Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4.
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2 player battle
Posted 05/25/2007 2:56 PM Post a reply Quote this post View mortermer's info
I need to know how to open the other tracks in 2 player battle.
thank fo the info
Mortermer

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Updated 05/31/2007 6:31 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Flasawoo's info
Here you go guys, some more information for you on GT5.

This has apparently come from the mouth of Kaz himself.

GT5 is to include these features:

- All cars and tracks from GT4 will be included in GT5
- More cars and tracks should be downloadable
- 4 driving views
- Car damage
- All Ferrari+ F1 cars
- Porsche and Lamborghini brands to be confirmed
- Indianapolis may feature
- A game will be release before Gran Turismo 5, this is presumed to Gran Turismo 5 Prologue
- New city tracks
- Online drivers 12-20
- Dynamic weather during races

Yes. GT cars, rallye cars, will have damage. But no way we will see damage on a Audi A4 or on a Ferrari.

That sounds fair to me, so they will have damage on race cars. But road cars are to be left alone.

Wow is all i can say. Heres the article if you want to take a look.

http://www.gameswank.com/content/view/143/1/
Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4.
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Dreams come True!!
Posted 05/28/2007 3:58 PM Post a reply Quote this post View BTWhite37's info
Flasawoo,........ That's great news!! Looks like we getting everything we've been looking for since the release of GT4. I'ts good that PD seems to be listening to what the masses want, and what the competition is forcing on them.

Side Note: Recieved my Logitech G25 Wheel/Pedal/Shifter combo in the mail on Thursday. I'm used to it now and am thrilled with how much more it is improved over the DFP.

Phase one of my master plan complete!! Play Station 3 and GT5 to go, Brian
"Half measures availed us nothing", BBoAA.
- All setups and tuning for the Logitech Driving Force Pro and/or G25. - 100% Complete, Finally!... and on to GT5!!! @PS3 as "BTWhite37"

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Posted 05/30/2007 10:40 AM Post a reply Quote this post View mortermer's info
Hey Tuners,
still trying to get info for opening more tracks in 2 player battle on gt4. please get at me if you know how thanks.

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Posted 05/31/2007 6:23 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Flasawoo's info
mortermer wrote:
Hey Tuners,
still trying to get info for opening more tracks in 2 player battle on gt4. please get at me if you know how thanks.


I think you need to play a certain amount of days in GT mode to unlock tracks in arcade.
Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4.
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GT5 Article
Posted 05/31/2007 7:02 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
Flasawoo - thanks for posting the link and information. There is a lot of exciting stuff there. I'm on my way out the door now, so I'll post my detailed thoughts later. I wish there were a better translation, as some details can certainly be lost in the process. GT4 HD - 2 versions... sounds familiar.

BTWhite37 - So the G25 is that much better?
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Posted 05/31/2007 9:32 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Flasawoo's info
Like you said kerr, the translation is weak. But i think that when they are talking about the 2 versions, they are talking about the prologue, rather than GT5. Just before its mentioned i believe something is said about GT4 being downloadable. I think that at this point they jump off the subject of GT5 and onto about GTHD Classic (which will be a downloadable GT4). It seems to me like either the translator has got really mixed up in which areas he has translated (or some parts have been missed out) or the writer of the article has no idea that GTHD and GT5 are 2 different games.
Anyway it seems like the list (which is really the highlight of the article) that is posted is genuine, and that the features will be included in GT5, which if that is the case, will make the game seemingly immortal in the racing genre.
Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4.
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Forza Motorsport 2
Posted 06/08/2007 9:40 AM Post a reply Quote this post View GT2000's info
It was released today in the UK and so I went to pick up the limited edition pack along with the offical guide Cool

Been playing Forza 2 offline while I get used to it but so far so good. The graphics have been given a lick of paint over the demo and the handeling seems to have been altered just a little, probably on feedback from gamers playing the demo. As a result I now find it easier to drift when I choose to.

The AI has been improved again, they like to give you a fair challenge and the upgrade system is fantastic. I've started out in a Mini S Cooper and already fitted a fuel management system to it giving me 20bhp which made the difference. The tuning options seem to be on a par with GT4 for the people who like to play around with settings as well.

Photomode is there, very easy to use. No shortage of cars but the track listing seems a little thin when you compare it with GT4.

Not to sure what elese to add apart from the fact that this game just feels right. I was never a big fan of Forza on the Xbox but this second outing has taken what made the first one good and improved on it! Well worth buying and I'll be on this for weeks!

Can't wait for GT5 to see how it stacks up against this! Should be good.

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Posted 06/09/2007 11:44 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
@GT2K - Thanks for the Forza 2 post. therat1989 is enjoying the game as well. I am interested to see the tuning model myself. I found the original Forza to be very unforgiving when applying massive amounts of power to road cars. So your feeling is that the handling is less twitchy overall?

GT5 will most likely enjoy a couple years on the release cycle of Forza 2, so if it doesn't blow F2 out of the water then we have a major problem. Smile What would be really interesting is a GT release coinciding with a Forza release! I don't ever see that happening as both companies know they would ultimately be sacrificing sales. Staggering release dates allows junkies like us to save up the required cash to buy up everything in site.
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Updated 06/09/2007 6:03 PM Post a reply Quote this post View GT2000's info
Yea it is less twitchy and add to much HP to a road car and the cars chassis just can't handel the power so upgrades to suspension and tyres also has to be made. Very very good game imo!

Like you say, GT5 should blow Forza 2 out the water but by the time GT5 comes out we might be awaiting Forza 3 or indeed be playing it. 2 years have passed sinced the first Forza... took double that time from GT3 to GT4 didn't it Wink

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Posted 06/10/2007 12:23 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
You're exactly right about the difference in development cycles between the GT series and Forza. PD may assert that it's due to their ultra-high standards, but I feel there comes a point when gamers just want the game and would take a couple sacrifices if it means a couple years worth of time.
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Gran Turismo 5 over a year away?
Posted 07/02/2007 12:38 PM Post a reply Quote this post View GT2000's info
Polyphony director says next-gen racer could arrive as late as Q4 2008 despite the fact that a demo of Polyphony Digitalís highly anticipated racer is already up and available to download from PS3ís PlayStation Network, the gameís creators have warned that the final version of Gran Turismo 5 might not arrive until late 2008.

CVGís Mike Jackson reports that the gameís director Kaunori Yamauchi has stated that the earliest it could possibly arrive would be spring next year Ė but insisted that Sony is more than willing to push the release back to ensure the game is as good as it possibly can be.

Cars are named as one of the key reasons for the delay Ė apparently it takes 180 days for an in-game model to be built for GT5, significantly more than the 30 days it took for the car models in GT3.

In addition, crash damage has been ruled out of the game, with Yamauchi insisting that to implement such a feature would require a complete re-working of the physics and car models. He did add though that post-release downloadable cars are a certainty.

Source: MCV/CVG

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Updated 07/03/2007 12:04 PM Post a reply Quote this post View PipSqueek's info
I own PS2 & PS3, simply because of the GT series. I started with GT3. GTVault helped me tremendously with 3. I was disappointed with GT4, for reasons many have stated, however, I still bought the PS3 primarily in anticipation of GT5.

That said, Ive recently been playing the "other sim - Fza2", and I do like it. Im not done with Sony and PD, but, I am certainly disappointed with them.

Im a Driving/Racing Sim Fan, first and foremost. I dont get caught up in the GT vs Forza smack. Both series are being done very well.

Kerr, Im not sure if you feel some sort of allegiance to the GT series. Obviously, this site is GT vault. It would be nice to have a place for Both-- "The Vault" Wink. Just an opinion.

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Posted 07/03/2007 1:25 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
PipSqeek - long time no see, how's it goin? I think everyone here knows I was disappointed in many ways by GT4, especially after having put all the work into the site. It just felt like a glossier version of the same thing, only with some features I liked from GT1 and GT2 stripped out. I better not get started Smile I can't help it -- be prepared for a mid 2009 GT5 release date !#! Nod

I like gaming in general and don't have any allegiance to a particular series of games. Not playing an entire series due to an "allegiance" is just plain weird in my book.

There is a lot of technical work that goes into programming a setting site for race sims, so I don't have plans to add Forza2 to GTVault. therat1989 is working on a website aimed at Forza2 tuners. I believe he last said that he anticipates it will be done in a month or so. You may want to check with him on the particulars.
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