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Gran Turismo HD and micropayments: the beginning of the end?
Posted 10/20/2006 8:58 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
Many of you have read news of the "micropayment" strategy that Polyphony Digital has devised for the upcoming Gran Turismo HD on PS3. Quoting from an article on 1up:
Quote:
According to the Famitsu inteview with Kazunori Yamauchi, Gran Turismo HD will have two SKUs on the PS3. One of these games will ship with no cars, all of them will be purchased via microtransactions.

The other, Gran Turismo HD: Premium, will ship with two courses and 30 cars, with an additional 30 cars and an additional two courses online at a later date. The Premium game is being considered a prologue to the PS3's eventual Gran Turismo 5.

The microtransaction-focused game, Gran Turismo HD: Classic will be the online-focused entrant into the GT-series. In this game, players will (reportedly) start with no cars or courses available to them. Instead, they will need to purchase their stable of cars and courses to race on. The pricing reported in the Famitsu piece indicated that cars would cost between 50-100 yen ($0.43-$0.85) and courses between 200-500 yen ($1.71-$4.26). There are approximiately 750 cars and 50 tracks available for purchase in the GT: HD Classic. Let's do the math:

  • 750 cars for $0.50-$1.00 (Sony will round-up, don't you think?)
  • 50 tracks for $1.50-$4.50


A complete copy of the game will cost gamers somewhere between $426.50 and $975, and that's without factoring in whatever Sony decides to charge for the menus (since that's all you'll get with GT HD: Classic).

I've seen many discussions and debates on the particulars, such as how much the basic GT: HD Classic vs. GT: HD Premium will cost up front. Who cares? The bottom line, as anyone familiar with the corporate world already knows, is to make more money. Period. End of story. A la carte purchase of cars and tracks is nothing less than a stab in the back to the racing simulation genre. The idea of earning your way through the game by achievement is rendered null and void. You may say, "But, Kerr, you still have to get X license and beat X race series before you will be allowed to purchase X vehicle and/or X track!". Doesn't matter. Nickel and dime me to death for content that should be part of the game, and you can count me out. I couldn't care less how good the graphics, etc. may be.

There is also news that core features will be released later as downloads as opposed to shipping with the game itself. An an article on qj.net states:
Quote:
Yamauchi explained the reasoning behind releasing car damage and AI for Gran Turismo HD as downloads, which in short is "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Online gaming has changed the way developers approach building a game, he says. Rather than keep adding content until it's time to release the game, it's best to start service with something, and build it up from there. This means that a GTHD game (the Classic version) could be out as early as December (in Japan, anyway), and can be expanded later with microtransaction downloads.

And as for those downloads? Given the expense of downloading those cars and tracks and so forth, Polyphony hopes to make the GTHD-downloaded content usable for GT5 (planned release in 2008). Which, in our opinion, would actually be a very good idea - at least those downloads will still be useful when we get the next game, right?

Seriously, car damage and AI released as downloads? These are considered core aspects of a racing sim, not additional "content" that can be shelved for when there is more time.

As has become custom, it appears that GT development is behind schedule. Those of us who waited through the good end of two years of release delays for GT4 are very familiar with this scenario. Considering said delays, I and many others were somewhat disenchanted with the end result. The major difference here is that GT4 was not a launch game for the PS2. Intense pressure is on to release a GT game coinciding with the PS3 launch. Release delays will translate to mountains of lost revenue for Sony. The only way out is to release a half-baked game, tack on a capitalism-is-king downloading scheme, and watch the money roll in. Frankly, this makes me sick.

People are quick to blame the MMORPG genre for the start of this madness, but I also believe there is a corollary with the mobile phone ringtone industry. Talk about a complete ripoff scheme that went gangbusters! A bit of searching reveals that the phenomenon began in 2001 in Finland, then quickly spread to the other side of the Atlantic by 2002. In 2005, the four year old ringtone industry raked in 11 billion dollars selling 30 second lo-fi sound cliips to users. Am I alone in thinking this is flat out retarded? Regardless, it's obvious that the public at large has lovingly embraced the ringtone scheme. This sheeplike behavior encourages large corporations to create like revenue streams in other markets. The success of iTunes has further demonstrated that people are willing to pay, in aggregate, large sums of money for low quality, restricted content.

The application of micropayments in video games undermines the essence of a video game being a test of skill and turns it into nothing more than another shopping experience. That people aren't enraged at this industry wide shift in strategy is appalling and yet not the least bit surprising.

There are conflicting reports across the web as to whether Sony will actually pursue micropayments in the U.S. market. From a post on qj.net:
Quote:
Sony has yet to comment if this plan will apply for Western releases for the titles - which is the important point of this post. Already people are up in arms about this, screaming "rip off." It's probably safe to assume that Sony is taking time to see how the west will react before they take the plan and launch it in less "otaku" shores.

Make no mistake that Sony and many other corporations are committed to jumping on the micropayment bandwagon. As I illustrated above, there is plenty of market precedent indicating a potential windfall in revenues. I have been a loyal Gran Turismo addict since day one, and this is how Sony intends to reward me? If micropayments are introduced as part of the new Gran Turismo, Sony can expect zero business from me in the future. Really though, how surprising is a move like this from the company whose philosophy is embodied in words like Betamax, MiniDisc and Blu-Ray? As consumers, the only opportunity we have to tell a company like Sony how we feel is to not spend money with them. The gaming public is talking a good game now, but how will it play out in the end? Me, I'm going to continue playing the original Forza on my XBox while I wait for Forza 2. At least I have Porsches, Ferraris, a great selection of race cars, a damage model and aggressive AI that doesn't act like a robot on a string. Oh, and there aren't 50+ redundant versions of the Skyline. Big Grin
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Posted 10/21/2006 9:49 AM Post a reply Quote this post View AlbinoMonkeyrat's info
I think they should release the game with as many cars and tracks that can fit on one disc, and then any additional stuff can be downloaded from the website, with licensing and registration, etc. But paying real money for fake cars...NOT COOL.

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Posted 10/21/2006 3:27 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Tyr13's info
Totally agree with you Kerr. If they chose to release it like that, I will just continue to play the older versions. Getting tired of companies like Sony trying to milk me for every buck they can. Up yours Sony. The Finger
If you dont like the way I drive. Stay off the sidewalk.

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Posted 10/21/2006 3:37 PM Post a reply Quote this post View aspen's info
Not sure how all that will pan out, If they release a complete game and then gain some licencing or something later I'm o.k. with that but I don't want to be raped. How will they stop piracy?

I'm a patient guy so I'll wait for gt5 and the price of the gt25 to fall. If it all gets to be to much I'll just buy a new pc and go that route.

Good heads up Kerr.

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Posted 10/21/2006 9:24 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Terranismo's info
I wonder how will Sony try to charge people in developing nations. Most do not have a credit or internet structure able to account for the microtransaction "business case." Does that mean those countries will be left without a new GT game?

Also, just like aspen mentioned, how will they stop piracy, or even block users from sharing saves through the net or memory cards?

This is a real bonehead move by Sony. The real problem will be is if they see a big enough revenue stream from implementing it other developers will immediately jump ship. In no time "microtransaction" will be the standard and game with real content only relics of the past or deemed "not commercially viable."

This sucks. Thumbs Down

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Updated 10/22/2006 11:37 AM Post a reply Quote this post View zblazers90's info
this is f***ing retarded, i mean when i buy a game for 50$ i expect to get everything on it, not buy it then have to buy all the menus maps cars and such, if they do this ill just play with what i have, or ill jump to the xbox bandwagon, but if sony does this and makes money off of it, then xbox (microsoft) will prlly follow suit. GOD F***ING DAMMIT SONY! The Finger
what ive felt, what ive known, turn the pages, turn the stone, behind the door should i open it for you? yeahhhh, what ive felt, what ive known, sick and tired i stand alone, could you be there cause im the one that waits for you, or are you unforgiven 2

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Updated 10/22/2006 5:13 PM Post a reply Quote this post View GT2000's info
Nice post Kerr... I've nothing to add its that good Thumbs Up

I think I'll wait and see how the real GT5 turns out. PS3 is going to be expensive enough without PD/Sony ripping me off with a half-baked GT product. Its a real shame and if you don't have a broadband connection or don't have broadband in your area then you may as well not bother at all!

I'll stick with my XBOX360 and my HD TV set Big Grin M$ have done a great job so far with the live service and the machine its self gets the job done well.

@Kerr: Do you have an XBOX live gamer tag? Mine is FinalNitrous
I've only got the silver service at the moment tho.

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Posted 10/22/2006 7:38 PM Post a reply Quote this post View TopGear_Stig_2's info
wtf...so we have 2 pay 4 cars and tracks???????????????? forget that!

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GT5.......? PS3...........?
Updated 10/23/2006 3:38 AM Post a reply Quote this post View BTWhite37's info
I had already decided that as a family man with bills and the like, That I was going to have to wait a year or two for a PS3 and probably by then would include a GT5 as an incentive game. You know, a "package deal" at Costco or something. I'm still having a blast with GT4 and my Driving Force Pro, and am only 78% done or so. Racing On............. Big Grin

Like all things internet that you have to pay for, some fool will find a way to pirate it and spread it to the masses. Ninja Master Sony won't make all they're thinking they will. Bright Idea I can only hope that this GTHD is just a gimmic and not the way of Gran Turismo for the future. I'm such a fan, it would be a shame to be cut out like that. I imagine it would be the same for many others also.

Gonna keep my thumb Thumbs Down on the pulse on this one and see how it goes ................ but I'm passing Arrow on GTHD as I did on Sony's last GT stop gap, GT4 Prologue. The Finger
"Half measures availed us nothing", BBoAA.
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Posted 10/23/2006 5:18 PM Post a reply Quote this post View NSXType-R's info
The good part is that it won't guarantee that GT5 will be charging people. Why can't they spend more time on GT5 and keep it from being delayed? The reason why GT keeps getting delayed is because they're busy making billions of small projects (Prologue, GTHD) and not focusing on the main thing.

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Posted 10/24/2006 9:36 PM Post a reply Quote this post View zblazers90's info
that is very true nsx Thumbs Up , they would be done by the release of the ps3 but they gaggle with this useless hd and classic stuff
what ive felt, what ive known, turn the pages, turn the stone, behind the door should i open it for you? yeahhhh, what ive felt, what ive known, sick and tired i stand alone, could you be there cause im the one that waits for you, or are you unforgiven 2

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Updated 10/26/2006 7:28 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Vimana's info
I have been away working on different projects, not even had the time to turn my (Pro) wheel, just to come back to read this awful news. To think of the thousands of hours playing and tuning from GT-1 knowing it will all end here. Money is not the real issue, it will not be a game anymore, it will be an investment, and I as one will not pay to be treated with such disrespect. I am sitting here sick to my stomach. Like others have written " It's X-BOX 360" time.
See a picture of the real Vimana Plug (positive mold) http://www.tunnelcarconcepts.com

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Posted 10/28/2006 9:45 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Flasawoo's info
this has been discussed for months on another forum that i use and many people are outraged, however they aren't looking at the situation properly
the following text is about what PD are doing with GT HD


There will be 2 games that come with GT HD, GT HD Vision and GT HD Classic

GT HD Premium --- the game that was originally going to come out, with all the planned content and you don't need to buy anything, it is a GT5 prologue so the content is limited, extra stuff includes 1080p, bikes, ferrari, new car models, new tracks, 20+ cars on track at once, online multiplayer (yet to be confirmed in this version) and a bit more.

GT HD Classic --- GT4 with all the new stuff, but it only has online and arcade, therefore you won't need to buy all the cars, just get 10 or so you want, this game comes free, they aren't charging you any more, so if you want to you can completely forget that it is here.

when GT5 comes out it will most likely be like the 2 games in 1, there will be a career mode in which you win (no need to buy) the cars in order to progress, probably the amount of cars will be in the range of 800-1200, then i would expect there to be a kind of different game online, where you get to use a couple of the cars you've won, but as they make new models you can download them for a price, this is already being used with games today.

you are still getting the same game that was planned 2 years ago, GT HD Premium, anyone remember GT4 prologue? it's the same thing, but this time they are giving away a free game with it, well they are giving away the base of a game, GT HD Classic, it's for the people who want to play with the new features on all their favourite past cars, there is no career mode so you don't need to pay to complete it, you just buy 5 or 6 of your favourite cars and maybe a track, that's all you need as you have the other game. Who wants 750 cars just for an arcade and online mode? The cars won't be needed to beat anything so you don't need them at all, PD are just giving you the opportunity to create your own extended demo. It was never their intention to get people to buy all the cars and all the tracks.

Also PD have announced that they will only be charging people for the disk, manual and box it comes in, nobody knows quite how much it is, but expect it to be somewhere in the region of $15 .


These aren't full games, they don't even have any career mode, they are just to give players a taster of what GT5 will be able to do, and guess what, if you buy the game, plus 10 of your favourite cars from GT4 (obviously for online only) and your favourite track the grand total will be
$25 - $30
not $800, i mean really, there not idiots, i think they expected most of you to read the thing properly and understand that the only reason they have included the pay for your car feature is as an extra so you can get some of your favourite cars and tracks from past games into your extended demo.



GT5 will be back to normal, no paying for anything here, apart from possibly some extra cars/tracks that they create at a later date available for download.



also anyone who still doesn't want to pay $25 for a game that will have full next gen capabilities (1080p) 50 cars (some of which you chose) and half a dozen tracks (also some of which you chose), then don't buy it, this isn't going to end the GT series forever, wait until GT5, it will include the same GT mode as past GT games, where you win the cars.
Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4.
Successful cars:
confirmed --- 17
unconfirmed --- 5

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Flasawoo.........................?
Posted 10/28/2006 10:32 AM Post a reply Quote this post View BTWhite37's info
Thanks for the detailed heads up. What you said sounds resonable. What were your sources for the info,....... or are we just reading between the lines and missing the point you came to?

In reference to: "Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4. Successful cars: 15".
What glitch are you refering to at The 'Ring? Care to fill me in? Thanks, Brian
"Half measures availed us nothing", BBoAA.
- All setups and tuning for the Logitech Driving Force Pro and/or G25. - 100% Complete, Finally!... and on to GT5!!! @PS3 as "BTWhite37"

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Posted 10/28/2006 1:47 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Flasawoo's info
the glitch is a reletively unknown one that i found a video of on google video
look here for a detailed topic on another message board about it


http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=561066&topic=29937991

i haven't updated that sig in a while, now we have 16 confirmed and 4 unconfirmed, the video of it is in the first message


about the info i posted, a lot of it has been taken from interviews with kaz (the $15 ish for a game came from that, plus how the second game is free, and a few more stuff), and other detailed message boards such as gtplanet,
a lot of it however is just people failing to understand that meaning objective of the game, a lot of people get confused thinking there will be a career, meaning you need to buy every car, however really what PD are trying to do is give you more freedome with their prologue in letting you decide what cars/tracks you want to include

the part about GT5 being back to normal i found in a video of GT HD, with the commentary, and i'm just presuming about how they will let you buy extra cars once they create them for use online, which i think is pretty fair as those cars weren't ever part of the original game

if i find the exact URL of the sources i will post them
Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4.
Successful cars:
confirmed --- 17
unconfirmed --- 5

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Posted 10/29/2006 9:21 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
Thanks for the information, Flasawoo. These are clearly changes from the interview I posted, so one can infer that public reaction may have influenced a change in direction or if not that at least some further explanation. I've seen very little positive commentary on the issue of micropayments. It appears that Sony may want to pay for their online service by way of micropayments as opposed to a monthly subscription fee. I don't fundamentally disagree with a strategy like that. As with Prologue, I'm not interested in playing a demo anyway. I'll wait for GT5 and will only buy it if a career mode exists sans micropayments. We are, however, a long ways away from that date, so I guess we'll see in about 3-4 years?
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Posted 10/29/2006 9:47 AM Post a reply Quote this post View Flasawoo's info
the info you posted about the microtransactions was released about 4 months ago, and since then PD have made changes, like you said that may be down to the fanbase being disgusted with the idea, or maybe they wre going to change it anyway

Like you said it is very hard to see anyway that microtransactions will have a possitive effect, the only few i can think of is in GT HD's case, where you get to chose what content you awnt in the demo, no more having to use the worst car on the most boring track. And i suppose that if they start to sell aditional content after the games release (for example if they develop new cars for the game) it will be acceptable, as long as it is very cheap.

Whether we like it or not microtransactions will start to be used more and more, whether it's having to pay for extra content, or like you stated having to pay to play certain games online for the PS3. However i'm possitive that they won't go as far as making you pay for stuff that is needed to complete a game. Which is why i think that GT5 will consist of the normal game with the 1000+ cars, aswell as a second game online, where you can use possibly some cars from your single player save, but you will also be given the option to buy newly developed models for use online.
Currently testing the Nurburgring Glitch in GT4.
Successful cars:
confirmed --- 17
unconfirmed --- 5

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Posted 10/31/2006 10:23 AM Post a reply Quote this post View digijimcat's info
My understanding is that Sony intend to muscle in on the Xbox's dominance of online gaming by not subscription charging for online gaming. However PS3 users will probably have to access alot more content via micropayments than Xbox users i.e. we end up paying either way.

I can see some advantages to purchasing online upgrades as opposed to having to pay full price for the latest version of a game - no more paying full whack for Tiger Woods 2007 (post GT chill out!), which is 90% identical to TW 2006. Also just think if PD could have incrementally improved GT4, rather than us having to wait for years for GT5? We could be experiencing improved AI and crash damage right now in GT4?

Anyway - be thankful if like most GT vaulters, you are west of the Atlantic - our PS3 kicks wont arrive till Spring 07. Crybaby

Digijimcat, UK

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Posted 10/31/2006 4:18 PM Post a reply Quote this post View Kerr's info
As I said earlier, I'm not opposed to the notion of micropayments in lieu of recurring access fees. I still strongly feel that core gameplay elements should be released with the game rather than added on later. One might argue that, in the case of GT, smarter AI and a damage engine would be "enhancements". I call BS. These are two items that have been sorely lacking in the GT series. It's hard to consider GT the Ultimate Driving Simulator when key features either don't exist or are on the Arcade side of the dial.

This strategy does not bode well for the future of console game quality. Not only will portions of a game go missing upon initial release, stability of the code that is actually released will be compromised. Half-baked release... patch... patch... patch... patch. This has been a long standing issue with PC games. I personally feel there is no excuse for the console developers to go this route as they are developing for a very small amount of hardware configurations. Another problem inherent with this philosophy is the assumption that PS3 owners will have a high speed Internet connection. Will PS3 owners without high-speed Internet have access to post-release patches?
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Updated 11/01/2006 4:04 AM Post a reply Quote this post View MasterGT's info
Kerr:

At other forums, I have discussed in detail about these mega-transactions (there is nothing micro about them) and you have picked up on some of the problems, but there are some we will never really know about until this half-baked product hits the market. Yes, GT is sold in over 100 countries and many of those players don't have the ability to make web-based financial transactions (nor will they be able to play on-line without broadband), so what are all of those consumers going to do? Many adults here don't/won't do web purchasing, either, so how will they buy content? For every consumer who doesn't get involved with GT, the brand's community shrinks and that is not good.

Not only them, but if GT:HD is going to be sold in this manner, what about Little Billy? Is he going to go to Mom & Dad with his hand out every time he needs a car to enter restricted races? How soon before they throw in the towel and say "NO more!"?

If GT5 is going to be "normal" and have unlockable content as the game has always had, what are all of the GT:HD consumers going to think every time they unlock a car or track for free, while playing GT5, that they purchased for the earlier version? What value can the bought content retain with free GT5 content? Hmmm...

Business changes, so what happens if SONY/PD implement one downloadable content scheme now and then they change their minds later? How far into the future will our expensive content last before they pull the rug out from under us and it is not transferable to future GT versions? $Poof$

The content is not a bargain in any way, either. The suggested prices are about ten times what I think are reasonable. To buy just the normal tracks we all expect to use, we would be paying more than what we blew on the GT4 beta SONY sold us all! And GT4 was complete, buggy but it is all there (ah, well, except on-line and two-player drag races, a good replay monitor and some replay modes, etc). They have talked about exclusive and time limited content, too. Don't expect to pay micro amounts for that!

A little while ago, I came up with a likely reason for PD taking so long for GT4 to be released: Kaz was finished with the PS2, so there was nothing left to do but wait for the new console and do research for the next GT. Right? Remember those car and track picture taking and sound recording sessions? Why would they need to do all of that for the PS2, since it couldn't handle them anyway? When the PS3 didn't arrive in a timely manner, they had to cobble together another PS2 version. They needed to fund their division, too, so they came up with the idea of the one-brand demos they sold to the auto manufacturers. There was about 12-13 of them (developers love paying beta testers), plus selling Prologue to some of you, too.

Getting back to dealing with GT:HD. PS2 players don't need to look to other platforms to get a good alternative to GT. We have one now! While PD took so long to release a sequel to GT3, another company could have released two new versions. Another company did do it, too! Codemasters released ToCA 2 and ToCA 3 within 2 years of each other! Both games have realistic damage and on-line for 8 players and ToCA 2 did it all for dial-up users, too! Take that, PD! So, if PS2 users want to race on-line, you do have a choice! You don't need to wait for a new, expensive console, either. While ToCA has some dis/advantages, so does GT. Both are good games, but another developer was able to give us more of what we wanted, though: on-line, damage, different physics (no RWD cars with lots of understeer), better sound, real world tracks and car brands not in GT, plus they gave us two very different versions, which most of you just ignored, while you whined for GT4.

My point is: spend your money wisely and stay informed. You don't have to part with your money if you are unhappy with SONY/PD's tactics. If we support this mega-transaction scheme of theirs for an unfinished product, who is the fool? Any money we spend on GT:HD now will only bite us later. Before you spend a dime on GT:HD, wait for details about how GT5 will be designed and marketed. For most of us, that will mean skipping GT:HD, which is possibly be the best thing we could all do.
Cheers,

MasterGT

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Posted 11/01/2006 11:22 AM Post a reply Quote this post View therat1989's info
I'm hoping they don't make us pay for almost everything out there. Just some rare cars or some rare body parts. You know release a new car or a bundle of cars every once in a while. I would probably spend an extra 30 or 40 dollars on the game but past that I personally think is ridiculous.
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